Back in 2020, we spoke with Maciej Wojtal, a London-based fund manager who specializes in Iranian stocks. The market is one of the most unfamiliar in the world and most investors can't even look up where the country's shares are trading given ongoing sanctions. Of course, there's also constantly changing geopolitical risk, which has only picked up in light of Israel-Hamas war. In this episode, we find out what's been going with Iranian stocks in the midst of the recent upheaval and dig deeper into its overall economy after years of isolation from the Western world. This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.
Key insights about the pod:
What does Maciej Wojtal’s fund do with Iranian stocks? — 04:03
How does he get data on the Iranian market? — 10:20
What’s been happening to Iranian stocks lately? — 12:22
How do you gauge the performance of Iranian stocks? — 15:36
More on the importance of the Iranian Rial — 21:27
Iranians investing in real estate and use cars as a hedge — 25:14
Will Iran ever be integrated into the global economy? — 33:53
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Tracy Alloway (00:10):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.
Joe Weisenthal (00:15):
And I'm Joe Weisenthal.
Tracy (00:16):
Joe, have you looked at the Tehran Stock Exchange recently?
Joe (00:21):
I have not. Let me look that up right now.
Tracy (00:25):
I know what's going to happen.
Joe (00:26):
Oh, nope. I can't find any data for it.
Tracy (00:28):
Yeah, we have actually recorded...
Joe (00:31):
Oh! Do you know what happens when you look on the Bloomberg?
Tracy (00:35):
Do you get a warning? I bet you do.
Joe (00:36):
You do. So if you're on the Bloomberg terminal and you want to see what's happening on the Tehran Stock Exchange, you actually get a red bar, and it said sanctions may apply to this instrument and you can't get the data.
Tracy (00:47):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And we have actually done an episode on Iranian stocks before, and one of the reasons this particular market is interesting is because it has to be the most unfamiliar equity market out there, I think, for the vast majority of investors. Because of sanctions, you can't access data on it. You're not going to see a lot of news stories on what's going on with Iranian stocks. It's just really hard to get a sense at any single point in time of what this market is doing, what it's comprised of, and basically any information on it at all.
Joe (01:27):
That's right. It's very strange. It exists and there are plenty of stocks on it. It's always sort of interesting, I guess, to be reminded that stock markets exist in all these far-flung locations. Iran, of course, is a relatively big middle income country, but because of the sanctions, it's just so unplugged into the Western financial system [that] it just doesn't even come up in any conversation. I mean, you hear much more about say, the Saudi market or something like that.
Tracy (01:54):
Absolutely, and I'm always kind of surprised when I read the numbers behind how big the Iranian economy actually is because, again, it's just one that people don't really talk about that much, except maybe in the context of oil exports.
But anyway, as I mentioned, we did an episode on the Iranian stock market a couple years ago, and obviously Iran is back in the news. There's always been a degree of geopolitical risk in this market, for obvious reasons. We already mentioned sanctions, but geopolitical risk has just kicked into high gear, given the conflict between Israel and Hamas and so I thought it might be interesting to bring back our guest and just try to take a look at what's happening in this extremely unfamiliar and sort of opaque market.
Joe (02:44):
That's right and obviously right prior to the start of the war, there had been talk, and we talked about this with Gregory Brew actually, there had been this easing, not of the sanctions, but it seemed of the enforcement of the sanctions. And so a lot of Iranian oil has been flowing out of the country despite the sanctions. And of course, there was that money that the Biden administration had unfrozen and then since refrozen, and so there had been some macro moves happening in Iran. Whatever trajectory Iran may have been on is probably on something different now.
Tracy (03:21):
Absolutely, so we are going to be speaking with our previous guest. It's Maciej Wojtal. He is an investor in Iranian stocks. In fact, I think he runs the only foreign institutional investor that is actually investing in Iran. So again, not a very crowded market and certainly an unusual one. Maciej thank you so much for coming back on Odd Lots.
Maciej Wojtal (03:46):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Tracy (03:48):
So maybe just to begin with, you could sort of give us a reminder of what it is that you and your fund actually do. For listeners who weren't listening to Odd Lots back in 2020, what's your mandate?
Maciej (04:03):
So like a brief description of what we are doing and, and why we are doing this? So we run an equity fund. It's a proper mutual fund registered in one of the European jurisdictions and our mandate is to buy stocks listed on the Tehran Stock Exchange.
So the Tehran Stock Exchange is the biggest stock market that no one has ever heard of and it's a proper market. It has around 600 companies listed. More than 50 different industries are present on the market, so it's not a proxy on oil prices. It's around a $250 billion market cap and this is decent liquidity. So if Iran was properly integrated into global financial markets with no sanctions on it, Iran would definitely be one of the members in MSCI emerging markets indices or would be the biggest member of MSCI frontier markets indices.
But because of all those difficulties that you mentioned related to sanctions mainly and capital controls, there are no foreign investors there. We got interested back in 2016 when it became legal to start doing anything with Iran, as long as you're not an American investor. Americans still cannot touch the market but it became legal for everyone else pretty much. But still, half of our work is doing due diligence and actually working on operations to make it possible to invest there.
But what's interesting and why we are doing this is that you mentioned that you were surprised how big Iran's economy is and I would say that no, it's actually very small compared to how big it could get because Iran, you know, it’s around 90 million people, the largest combined oil and gas reserves in the world, and a properly developed and diversified economy. Well, thanks to decades of sanctions, they didn't have a choice. They had to develop all different parts of the economy.
And all this— in terms of GDP — is around, depending how you calculate it, but it's around $200 billion. Now when you look at Turkey, which is a similar size country in terms of population and geographical size, but no natural resources, Turkey is around $800-$900 billion. If you look at Saudi Arabia, which has no other sectors except for oil and some petrochemicals, the GDP over there is around $1 trillion. So in some super optimistic, very positive scenario, if everything went well for Iran, Iran could become basically the combination of the two, which is anywhere between $1.8 to $2 trillion dollars.
So the upside for the economy is eight times from where it is right now. So this is the potential, this is the optionality that is in the market. On top of that, once the country starts to open up, obviously there is a long list of things that would have to come in place, then we expect to see a lot of capital flowing into the market and right now it's only domestic capital and us, which means that because there is not enough capital the local assets are valued at very low levels.
So what we are seeing in the market is that we are buying stocks at four to five times forward net earnings and those earnings are growing, they are paying dividends. The average or the median dividend yield for the top 100 companies is probably close to 15%. So strong double digit dividend yields valuations at such levels that they cannot really fall further as long as those earnings are growing.
So investment risks are pretty small, pretty limited. You have different sorts of risks. You have geopolitics, exactly as you mentioned. I mean those equities basically are priced for war and obviously there is a reason, there might be a reason for that. It's because it's the Middle East and it's amazing how the narrative, you know, the region reminded everyone that the situation and the perception of the region can make a u-turn overnight. Because a month ago, it was not only what you mentioned in the introduction that there was some sort of arrangement between Iran and the US which led to the prisoner exchange, which was very important because historically prisoner exchange was usually the first step to something bigger. Then on top of that, Iran is selling a lot of oil so obviously sanctions are probably not enforced very strictly and so on.
But the bigger story a month ago was in the whole Middle East where Iran basically signed what you can call a peace treaty with Saudi Arabia after many years of not having diplomatic relations. Then what followed were discussions and restoration of diplomatic ties with Iran and Egypt, Bahrain, all Saudi allies and so on.
Joe (09:53):
I obviously want to talk about the trajectory of the country but to back up for a moment, obviously the country, as we said in the intro, the country's entire financial system’s extremely cut off to the point that you can't access the data. Can you talk about how, just remind us for those who haven't listened to the episode, which I think was late 2019 or early 2020, the mechanics of how you access the Tehran Stock Exchange from where you are?
Maciej (10:20):
Okay, yeah. So look, you have to access the Tehran Stock Exchange website, which actually sometimes you're not able to access from IPs from outside of Iran. We subscribe to local services, price services like mini Bloombergs in Iran that offer a very decent way of going through the data.
So you can not only follow the prices, stock prices, but also it's a good database in a nice format of historical earnings, quarterly earnings, monthly sales data, corporate announcements, charts or different types of charts like price charts, fundamental charts historical valuations, and so on and so forth. So this is all available in Iran. You have to find those suppliers that subscribe to those services.
It's much, much easier if you have people on the ground. So we had an office with three full-time analysts who help with not only research, but also getting things done because some things you actually have to do manually there. For example, companies pay very high dividends and dividend yield is very high in the market, but they try not to pay for as long as possible because interest rates are high. They try to get this interest for as long as possible, so you actually have to chase them to pay you, right? You call them to send faxes to stuff like this, so you need someone on the ground to do it on your behalf.
Tracy (12:10):
Another really basic question on that note, and again, we are unable to access any sort of data, but what has been going on with Iranian stocks recently?
Maciej (12:22):
So on the seventh of October, I believe that it was the case for the whole region that the local currencies sold off and local stock markets went down. What happened was that initially everything went down. For the first three weeks, the local equity index measured in dollar terms was going down with the lowest point around 10% in terms of the correction.
Since then it started bouncing back. In local currency terms, the equity index is actually at the level from the seventh of October so it made up for all the losses. The currency is still down. So for a foreign investor who is measuring the P&L in dollar terms, you are still roughly 3% down. So it's actually not that bad given the circumstances, given the risk for local markets and especially Iran which is involved in everything that is going on.
The worst case scenario is that potentially there is a military conflict war, and I don't know, Iranian refineries or petrochemical plants are military targets and so on. And people were quite scared. We could see this. Some of the sectors went down in the meantime by about 20%, bounced back since then, but mainly that was happening due to very low liquidity.
So what was the biggest impact? Actually, we could see was on liquidity. Normal liquidity is around $150 million per day, and it went to as low as $30- 40 million. So what was going down the most was actually the most illiquid stocks or illiquid industries. So when I look at sectors that really were hit the most, it's textile producers, confectionaries, so things that are not related to war or geopolitics at all, but they are basically illiquid.
And, oh. One thing important to remember, so the stock market is driven by retail investors. 90% of daily trading is done by retail. So, it's very emotional, it's very short term momentum, I would say. So they are selling or buying depending on the, you know, recent price action. So they were driving the share price direction basically.
Tracy (15:00):
So when you say performance hasn't been that bad, I'm kind of curious what the basis of comparison is because, you know, in a frontier market or an emerging market, if you’re looking at Kuwaiti stocks or something like that, I imagine you would look at the wider benchmark or other members of like the MSCI Emerging Market Index or something like that, and that would help you gauge relative performance. But for something like Iran, because it's so unusual, it feels difficult to benchmark its performance in one way or another.
Maciej (15:36):
Yes, and the thing that is most volatile in Iran is the currency. So the stock market is much less volatile in the local currency than when measured in dollar terms. The local stock market is actually well hedged against currency depreciations because the majority of the biggest companies are actually exporters so they benefit from currency depreciation, but share prices react with a lag.
So for a foreign investor, you initially, usually when something is happening, you usually get hit, see a drawdown due to a big currency [move], volatile currency move, and then the stock market usually rallies because people realize that exporters will start showing better earnings and when share price eventually will always follow EPS.
And the lag is because the market is driven by retail. So in the US many currency move would be priced in real time into share prices of stocks that are sensitive to currency moves. In Iran, it sometimes takes a month or two months so it's actually a big opportunity that you have time to position yourself correctly.
There are two interesting facts about the performance of the market. So first of all, when I looked at the last 15 years and big geopolitical events for example, like previous conflicts with Hamas in Gaza, or there was a situation between Iran and the US where people were saying that this was close to a military conflict when Iranian general Soleimani was killed and then Iran retaliated by firing some missiles at an American base in Iraq. When I looked at the performance of the market, it never went down more than 10% in dollar terms, actually.
So what happened right now, I think the bottom was around almost 11% was pretty much in line with those historical geopolitical events that also presented a big risk for the local market. But another way of looking at the Iranian market is the historical performance. And this is very interesting because if you look at the performance of the benchmark equity index, it's called TedPix Index, total return.
For the last 15 years, so since the inception in 2018, the annualized return in dollars is around 11%, which I think is quite amazing because it's pretty much the same as for S&P 500, maybe 12% for S&P 500, so it's in the same ballpark and the environment was completely different. I mean, couldn't be more different because over the last 15 years in the US you had a technology revolution, those mega caps appearing on the market, interest rates initially going to zero, top of the cycle valuations and in Iran, you had two episodes of currency depreciation of more than 75%. You had some crazy presidents and you had US sanctions, UN sanctions and still, at the end of the day, when you compare performance over the last 15 years, it's pretty much the same, obviously with much bigger volatility because in Iran, the volatility was probably around 40% or something.
But that shows you that when you're buying assets at very, very low valuations, and I'm say talking about this four times net earnings, let's say, and the economy and those companies are actually naturally hedged against the currency volatility or big depreciation, then even in those countries where things are going really bad you can still make money. But what is more important is that if in bad times you are still averaging 11% per year, just think what you can make, what you can expect, when things finally go the right way for Iran and the country opens up and so on? That's the potential that we are obviously hoping for.
Joe (20:31):
Talk to us about perhaps the signs of a thaw in the several months leading up to October seventh, between the prisoner exchange, the expanded flow of oil from the perception of a lower enforcement of the sanctions. Was that showing up in the market in a clear way? And just to sort of emphasize that further, would there be a way to see that in the sectoral breakdown? So for example, if there is more oil flowing out of Iran, or if there was, was that rebounding to the benefit of oil-related listed Iranian stocks?
Maciej (21:10):
So the question about oil, the answer is no, because oil is not listed. The only oil-related stocks that you can find are local oil refineries that produce petroleum.
Joe (21:23):
So they don't benefit from further export?
Maciej (21:27):
They are correlated to crack spreads because they're domestic formulas for the price at which they're buying oil from the government is a function of regional crack spreads so nothing to do with it. But, there was one instrument that showed perfectly the higher oil sales is the currency. The currency, which I've been talking about, that it's so volatile, this year, it's been super stable — around 500,000 rial output per dollar and it's been going, oh, I don't know what's the volatility, I haven't checked it, but it's, you know, compar[ed] to the previous couple of years, like nothing is going on with the currency.
And this is a clear signal that there are enough reserves that the Central Bank of Iran is accumulating, that the pressure is gone. I mean, it's still very complicated because, you know, bank transfers don't really work or [are] at least not easy with Iran. So whenever Iranian exporters are selling something, whether this is oil or some more formal exports and more transparent exports, very often they don't get the money back to Iran, it's somewhere there. They get paid to, I don't know, accounts in China or whatever, and it's lying in those accounts and then money from those accounts can be used to finance imports, but it's not really coming back to Iran.
So it's helping, because Iran probably needs to spend roughly $20 billion per year to finance some essential imports and this is the minimum amount. If this is missing, then, well, Iran will have to buy dollars at any price, and this is when big depreciations happen, right? Because they need to buy some food, some pharmaceuticals and so on, so they'll buy it at any price. So when this is covered, then on top of that you have a budget deficit, but this is, again, maybe $10, maybe $15 billion dollars.
So altogether, if Iran manages to get $30 to $40 billion per year from oil sales, things are pretty much sorted in terms of stability, in terms of financing imports, in terms of budget deficit and so on. In normal circumstances, you know, countries [that are] opened, well-integrated with the rest of the world and so on, they will see every month an inflow of several billion dollars that will put pressure actually on the appreciation of the Iranian currency, of the Iranian Rial. So that's important, you could see this change in the last couple of quarters exactly in the exchange rate and it's astonishing how volatility went down on the FX.
Tracy (24:30):
So I take the point about the market itself being influenced by currency movements and things like that. But you already described how the players in Iranian stocks are mostly retail investors, I'm going to assume mostly domestic retail investors too, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. Can you maybe give us a little bit more color about what drives retail sentiment around Iran and inflows? Because I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, to me, it must be kind of a macro story, but maybe people get excited about individual stocks or the prospects for individual companies, but just give us a little bit more of a sense of what drives that sentiment?
Maciej (25:14):
Yes, so I think it's pretty easy. So it's the dollar, so the exchange rate of the dollar, it's the momentum, so if stocks are showing momentum, then they start chasing momentum and interest rates, local interest rates. So maybe not central bank interest rates, but whatever the deposit interest rate is.
There are several asset classes in Iran for retail investors. So real estate is the big one, the biggest one, but it's a high ticket item so not everyone can trade in and out of apartments. It's a well understood asset class as everywhere. That's why it's a bit less interesting for us. So if Iranians have any spare cash, they will buy real estate. From what I heard, 30% of apartments in Tehran are actually empty because they are basically used as a store of value just to park somewhere, assets, savings and they're not even rented out, they’re just empty.
And also just bear in mind that in Tehran in the best places, the best neighborhoods of Tehran prices are quite expensive. So in the north of Tehran, if you want to buy an apartment, you have to pay around $10,000 per square meter. So a 100 square meter apartment, I don't know three bedrooms will cost you a million dollars or something, in Iran, which is a poor country. So this is real estate. Real estate is the number one asset class.
Then a very important asset class are used cars. So people trade used cars because they are, again, a hedge against inflation against the currency depreciation, because car manufacturers will always adjust prices based on inflation. Some of the components have to be imported, which is not easy. They produce more than one million cars, or actually closer probably to 1.5 million cars per year, but this is not enough. So the demand is much higher.
So they're trading used cars and there are platforms that help you trade used cars. It's a proper asset class, and yes, every Iranian is actually a currency trader, because the currency has been so volatile historically. It's very important that you know what's happening to the dollar or the local currency against the dollar. So everyone is tracking the exchange rate and it's not easy to buy and sell dollars. There are quotas for individual Iranians due to capital controls. So that's why, instead of buying dollars or to get a bigger position, they go to those proxy asset classes, like used cars or real estate. Also interest rates so you can buy/sell Treasury bills, Treasury bills up to two years maturity. They pay around 25% yield to maturity, maybe a bit more right now so interest rates are high.
When you look at Iran, there is not enough capital there. There's basically not enough money, credit doesn't exist. I mean, you cannot get a mortgage at 25%, right? I mean, you cannot finance anything at 25%. And because of very volatile macro people also tend to postpone investment decisions, whether these are individuals or more importantly companies, right?
Everyone is looking like six months ahead, maybe 12 months ahead, right? And they are managing a crisis, because there is always some sort of a crisis, right? So when you think about it, for example, I don't know, every company is running big inventories just in case, just so that they have enough material to manufacture their products. So they're not optimized, organized in this very efficient, lean way. They are organized just to survive, basically, war conflict, currency depreciation, sanctions, trade disruptions, whatever.
Tracy (29:51):
Maciej, this is exactly what I wanted to ask you, because when you mentioned people investing in real estate as a speculative play and the idea of a certain proportion of apartments standing empty in Iran, the example that immediately sprung to mind was China. And in China there's a lot of money that's sort of trapped and recirculating in the economy — I used to call it China's Great Ball of Money — because of capital controls. And I imagine maybe there's a similar issue in Iran where there's not enough capital, but there's a lot of domestic savings that are sort of unable to get outside of the Iranian economy. Is that the right way to think of it?
Maciej (30:35):
So my understanding is that it used to be the case. Iran, when you looked at household savings was top of the list, when you look at emerging markets, at least in a purchasing power parity way of looking at this. However, the last couple of years have been really tough for Iranians due to sanctions.
So when sanctions were reintroduced in 2018, they haven't hurt manufacturing, they haven't hurt exports, companies that much, to be honest. I mean, because people find a way. I mean, companies that export in the region, they're not really affected by sanctions, big exporters that used to send products to Japan and so on, yes, they were affected, but they found other routes and manufacturers.
Sanctions caused one thing. I mean, sanctions caused currency volatility so the big depreciations of Rial and manufacturers who have costs in Rial, but they either sell in hard currency or at prices linked to some regional benchmarks that are in hard currency, their margins actually expanded.
Look, it's an interesting thing that the highest earnings growth that we've seen over the last couple of years was one year after the 2018 sanctions. This is crazy because this is not intended, I would assume. And, who got hurt by sanctions? Well, households, because they are price takers. So when the inflation shut off because of the currency depreciation, their spending power went down massively, right? And they were able to survive and it was actually quite interesting that they were holding up quite well. And this is because of those savings, right?
Because of the savings that Iranian households had. I'm not sure what's the situation right now, because they've been, I think, on a net basis, those savings have been decreasing over the last couple of years because they had just had to spend them. But yes, that's what helped them survive the inflation basically.
Joe (32:44):
I just have one more question, when we talked about this a few years ago, and obviously earlier on the chat just now, and you were talking about comps within the MSCI or perhaps expectations that one day there would be a proper easing of relations between Iran and Western capitals and that that would open up markets, etc., presumably a lot of that is the expectations are going to reverse, but could it be that that never happens and that the future is just a much bigger, sort of Chinese-centric sphere of financial influence in the region. Exports across Afghanistan, more trade with Russia, and that Iranian companies end up benefiting from the emergence of a basically separate, you know, people talk about the BRICS, for example.
Tracy (33:37):
This is the deglobalization idea, right?
Joe (33:38):
Yeah, that basically instead of one day becoming part [of] and plugging more into western financial system, that it never does that, it just plugs into another large emerging financial system, to the benefit of Iranian companies.
Maciej (33:53):
This is what's happening right now, absolutely. This part of the regionalization trend in terms of globalization. Iran is being accepted to all those organizations like BRICS, like the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which doesn't mean much because these are just political organizations. But on the other hand, it means that it's not isolated there, right?
That the country is welcome and will be part of those potentially different systems, which can be, I don't know, financial systems or economic ecosystems. So yes, absolutely this is happening. However, there is another big factor that will be driving Iran's direction in the future and it’s the population, it's demographics. Look, 90 million people live in Iran, and two thirds of them were born after the revolution in ‘79 so they can't really relate to any revolutionary slogans. They have their own vision for the country. They basically have their own vision of their lifestyle that they want to have, right?
And this is the same trend that is happening in other countries like Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is liberalizing a lot of areas of life. It's a very good decision, but I think that actually they don't have any other choice because whichever country we're talking about, the local regime, the local government at the end of the day wants to stay in power, right? So they need to adjust to basically have their population happy and accept the status quo in terms of the power and the regime and so on. So they have to change and this is driving countries. I mean, same with protests that you could see at the beginning of the year in Iran, women protests. This is all changing the country, even if it's not visible immediately, it's a massive force and I think this will also affect the direction of the country.
Tracy (35:57):
Alright Maciej, thank you so much for that really interesting conversation on a market that we don't often hear a lot about. Thanks for coming back on Odd Lots.
Maciej (36:08):
Yes, it was great. Thank you so much.
Joe (36:10):
That was great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it and it's great to chat with you again.
Tracy (36:13):
Super interesting.
Joe (36:14):
We'll chat with you again in three years.
Maciej (36:16):
Right, right. Iran teaches you patience, right?
Tracy (36:34):
So Joe, that was really interesting and we'll have to talk to Maciej again in, I guess, three years’ time to see what's been going on. But I thought the mention of apartments and used cars as speculative investments, I had never heard that before for Iran. That was super interesting. And again, his point that it was sort of like China, but actually now a lot of personal savings have been run down. I guess that makes a lot of sense given the situation recently.
Joe (37:02):
I thought that was an incredibly fascinating conversation because yeah, I mean there are some sort of basic macro principles that apply regardless of the situation the country finds itself in. This idea that corporations in Iran operate with higher stockpiles of raw materials and other inventories, the opposite of lean.
Tracy (37:24):
The corporate side of the personal savings rate, like you have to build your own cushion in extreme uncertainty.
Joe (37:30):
In extreme uncertainty, you're not going to operate with any sort of minimal, obviously American investors want to see ‘Oh, get your inventory levels down, get your cash levels down.’
Tracy (37:40):
Efficiency!
Joe (37:41):
That's not the way any company is going to react in a country that's constantly buffeted by various geopolitical forces and sanctions and many unexpected things. The idea that there is this sort of beginning of increased relationships, maybe just political so far, but plugging into China and the BRICS, etc., and maybe it just never happens. I thought it was a very interesting conversation.
Tracy (38:07):
I liked your last question because I think maybe a couple decades ago there would've been an assumption that a country like Iran would be absorbed into the global economy. You know, you have this booming population and the line of globalization was always going up, but in 2023 there's certainly a question mark around that, and it does seem like we're heading more towards those sphere of influences, as you mentioned.
Joe (38:36):
Yeah, a few big spheres of influence rather than an expectation that it all sort of funnels into one flow of capital around the world.
Tracy (38:47):
Yeah, exactly. Shall we leave it there?
Joe (38:48):
Let's leave it there.
You can follow Maciej Wojtal at @mwojtal.