There are numerous aspects of American supply chains that have become strained over the past year. One key pain point has been the port truckers, who move containers from the ships to inland warehouses, before they’re sent out throughout the country. The port truckers to be paid worse than long-haul truckers, and they’ve faced a long history of wage theft and other poor conditions. On this episode, we speak with Ron Herrera, a director at the Teamsters, on the efforts to organize these drivers. Transcripts have been lightly-edited for clarity.
Joe Weisenthal:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.
Tracy Alloway:
And I'm Tracy Alloway.
Joe:
Tracy, obviously we've done plenty on logistics and supply chains and the ports this year, but there's a pretty important perspective on all this that we still haven't hit directly.
Tracy:
I feel like we have done quite a few angles on ports and logistics and supply chain issues, but you're right. There is actually a big one. We haven't gone in detail, although we've touched on it at various times, and that is what exactly is going on with the labor market, the truckers, you know, be they over the road truckers or drayage truckers, what exactly is going on there?
Joe:
Right. So we know there's stress on all aspects of the human or the human aspect of the supply chain has been put under stress. I know we did an episode last year with Craig Fuller of Freightwaves talking about the the two different trucker markets. And there's the over the road, long haul truckers that people most often probably associate in their minds with truckers and of them. At least some of them do pretty well. However, the pay and conditions for the port truckers, essentially the workers who line up at the ports to take the goods from a port to a more inland warehouse are not as well paid and face very different conditions. And there's been stories about long wait times this year long wait time is where they're not technically getting paid for it. And so the sort of actual working conditions, wages for the various people at the ports is something we need to dive into further.
Tracy:
Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot going on specifically at the ports obviously. And we've been speaking about that quite a lot. This idea of people, you know, showing up they're supposed to be earning money, but then they have to wait for 10 hours or whatever, until they actually get something to load and take somewhere else. And in the meantime, they're not actually earning anything, but that said there is this sort of broader trend that this fits into, which is the idea of, I guess, a, a shift in, in power or a swing back in the balance of power from capital to labor. And is it workers who have a lot of the, um, the bargaining advantage at the moment, uh, versus companies and everyone, I guess everyone just seems to have been sort of stressed out by Covid by the pandemic over the past two years, a lot of people in certain industries seem to be working, um, very hard and under stressful conditions. And does that start to impact working conditions?
Joe:
Exactly right. So we are going to get the, sort of the labor/organized labor perspective. You know we're gonna talk about the port truckers and other people who work within the ports complex, but the port truckers in particular, there have been for years stories about wage theft, poor condition. There's an amazing USA today, investigative piece in 2017 about the labor status of the port truckers. So, but without further ado, let jump right into it. We are gonna be speaking with Ron Herrera. He is the Teamsters National Port Director, and he is part of an effort to organize the port truckers. So Ron, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots.
Ron Herrera:
Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it. Thank you, Tracy. And thank you for, you know, helping expose an entity and labor that definitely needs exposing.
Joe:
So before we even get into the specifics you're working on, why do you talk to us a little bit about what your division of the Teamsters does generally and who within the port complex is isn't organized or isn't, uh, part of unionized labor, like give us a feel for what you do and just the, the overall conditions there?
Ron:
Actually, it's pretty simple. I oversee the ports in the country and the main focus is Los Angeles and Long Beach Harbor because of the state of California and trying to affect change in one state to spread to others. But we're a national division with, uh, with staff that puts out fires throughout the country. We also monitor cross border trucking and imports of product through the utilization of, of tractor trailer drivers. The entry into the United States from Mexico is very critical in this. So one of the things that we do is we oversee cross border trucking. As far as the drivers go you in the porch of Long Beach, I'll just talk specifically about Los Angeles and Long Beach. You have two basic categories of drivers. You have one that gets all the benefits of an employee, and then you have others that is classified and owner operators and receive no benefits for, you know, the work that they do from the trucking companies that they haul for. That's the basis of, of what we do. It's complicated in the sense that there are so many laws that are attached to this. And so we are constant to create policies that, you know, help these drivers
Tracy:
Maybe before we get into exactly what it is you're trying to change. You could give us some color on what it's been like to be a trucker over the past couple of years. What are the, the problems or the issues? Obviously you mentioned contractor status, but what is it exactly that is putting pressure on this particular workforce?
Ron:
Well the pandemic exposed everything. It peeled back the onion and things that have been going on for years were exposed, but we were in a national pandemic and like all of us, we were susceptible to, you know, unfortunately getting sick and we had quarantines that we were supposed to abide by if, if we did, uh, get infected by the it virus. But what did that mean to a, a contracted for driver? It meant that there was no minimum wage because they're not employees through EBD. It meant that they didn't have healthcare because they weren't an employee. It means that they weren't paying the social security. They didn't receive workers' compensation to get injured, or in this case would've been sick. They didn't have the ability to, you know, join a union and other protections on their job. You know, practically during the last couple of years, it's been a fight to get, you know to create safety regulations, obviously in California, we, our mayor and the county and the state governments all passed, uh, worker protections and the drivers that are independent carriers, these were their only protections on, on the job ones that had to be legislated.
So I think that, that, like I said earlier is it was peeling back of the onion that exposed all the safety atrocities that, that go on if you're an independent carrier.
Joe:
So there people who are on staff full time with benefits and then there's the essentially the gig workers. How does one end up as the other? Why are there two sets and why is it that one company could have their, uh, own workers on staff, but also employ gig workers? How does that work.
Ron:
It takes advantage of the current laws of misclassification. I think, you know, in recent settlements XPO drivers won a 30 million settlement from a federal judge — independent contractor were ruled as employees. So that suit was around wage stuff. That's what you both spoke about earlier, but I think you know, companies are taking advantage of a system that for the most part is devastating to a worker. Obviously there's choices that, you know, drivers make to, uh, own their own truck, but that should come with benefits. Also. There's always the argument about, you know, okay, you have an independent contractor that specifically moves product for a certain trucking company, but isn't, you know, entitled to benefits. So companies take advantage of it. You know, their overhead is lower, obviously because the cost factor to do business is much lower because there isn't, you know, healthcare costs there isn't overtime.
You spoke about wait time, there's, you know, no, wait time difference for an employee, right. Once he punches the pocket gets in, his truck gets paid for all time work. So it's a definite business advantage that companies that utilize it to the detriment of, of workers. And it's something that the Teamsters have fought for for many years is the dismantling of this misclassification and trying to equal the plane field for both sectors both independent contractors and, and employees. Many court cases have been ruled upon where companies have utilized, uh, independent contractor model and, you know, courts have ruled that they're actually not contractors that they're being utilized as employees and, and companies actually have changed their status and gone to an employee model.
Tracy:
I mean, I guess we understand why a company would want to use contracted drivers versus full-time employees, but just going back to Joe's question, maybe if we flip it, you know, why would companies want to have full-time employed drivers and how does someone become a full-time employed driver versus staying as just a contractor?
Ron:
I think that depends on the, on the model that a company should uses to, you know, uh, run with or operate with. I don't think it's anything that, that we decide as a, as a union. Unfortunately, if it was our decision, naturally, we'd go to the employee model cost everything's based on cost, if they can get away with the independent model and it's a, it's, you know, lesser overhead for them, what does that mean? More profits? You know, I would concentrate on, on the fact that, that the cost factors benefits, you know, these employers, unfortunately,
Joe:
But just to be clear and to sort of follow up on Tracy's question, a company like say XPO, it does have, it does have on staff drivers, correct?
Ron:
Yes.
Joe:
So, so the big companies do have some, there, there must have some impulse where at least they don't want to go a hundred percent, uh, contract labor
Ron:
In my work, right, as a union official. Sure. It's a deterrent. It's also a deterrent to unionize the model, the independent model also restricts, you know, there's law restrictions, as far as being, uh, a worker, you know, is right to organize. That's being challenged right now in Southern California, the right of an independent contractor to become union. So it's really complicated as far as why a company would, you know, utilize independent contracting cost and, and it, it box the, it locks the union as they of their, of their employees.
Tracy:
So just before we get into what you are trying to change, I just wanna go back to my first question. And you described the pandemic exposing workplace issues that had been there for a long time. Could you maybe give us a little bit more color on that? Like, what exactly are people upset about at the, what is it exactly that the pandemic has put into overdrive? Like if you could go into detail the day in the life of, you know, say a contracted driver at a port, what is it that made the past year or so? Um, much more difficult.
Ron:
The fear of being contracted right out of the box, the fear of being infected, because these workers aren't, they're not workers that could work remotely. They have to come into work every day of the pandemic. They had to come into work every day of the pandemic in order to make a living. So their exposure to the virus was, you know, a hundred times more than obviously someone that could work remotely, the fact that, uh, legislation policy had to be passed in order to acquire PPE. You report to a trucking company every day and you provide us a for that trucking company, but that trucking company wasn't mandated to give out PPE, but the utilization of your skill was for the profit of that trucking company. And let's say a driver, unfortunately did get it or had to go under quarantine, independent are paid by the load.
They don't get paid, you know, sick time. And that was a, a big issue because the drivers who were exposed, uh, had to go on, on, in quarantine. So a driver had to make a choice. Do I continue working? Do I do the right thing in quarantine? But what do you do when you have no income coming in? I mean, people don't realize it myself included, right. You know, what a decision that had to be on a family. I'm sure there were drivers that, you know, were infected, but still had to go out there and drive their truck because, you know, they weren't entitled to sick time. They don't have health insurance provided to 'em. So that was, uh, uh, a major factor that we were fighting for on the, uh, unemployment side. Right. If a driver had an extended time off it, because, you know, he was sick.
He wasn't entitled to unemployment automatically that had to be applied for, and then, you know, a special accommodation was given later on that, that independent contractors like could receive some kind of benefit. So, um, you have to remember that these, these drivers pay for maintenance, they pay for fuel, right. They pay for their truck payment. They possibly could lease trucks from, you know, their trucking companies. So there's all always debt attached to an independent contractor. And then you add everything that we just talked about. It was devastating to them to have to go through, uh, the last two years of, of, uh, this pandemic.
Joe:
We touched on it briefly, but, and there have been many stories about it. How have you mentioned that the truckers, uh, get paid by the load? And so in theory if there's really long wait times at the ports, that's fewer loads per day, that they can, uh, or fewer loads per week, that they can move in longer hours. How has that been a factor in this? And just in general, you know, it's like we hear so much about the labor shortage and the crunch at the ports have workers, whether independent contractors or, uh, staff workers been able to secure meaningfully higher wages and better benefits due to, uh, the imbalance,
Ron:
You know it's interesting because everyone talks about the supply chain. We've all been involved with it. Our international, yeah. Union has been as far up as our, uh, general president Mr. Hoffa, um, making commitments to, um, the White House and president Biden that the Teamsters would do their part to help out in the supply chain. And, you know, uh, what has been going on at the port as far as shortages, right. Cause that's what you're hearing driver shortages driver shortages,
Joe:
Right...
Ron:
But you're looking at an operation that needs to be dove into a little bit better for efficiency. Number one, we have relationships with the port directors, both in Los Angeles and Long Beach, and both of them know that the operation has to change, but I don't getting back to the driver shortage. Is there actually driver shortage or is there a shortage of good paying union jobs? Is there an attraction to young people, right. To pursue a career in trucking, are the paying benefits equal to some, uh, worker that can achieve the, the middle class? Uh, I think that, uh, the industry or the fact that, you know, low wages are paid and drivers, you know, are expected to wait in line is definitely a factor here, you know, that you don't get paid. So every con uh, conversation that we of as a union to, you know, officials that are looking at, uh, a more efficient port, uh, we always talk about, you know, high road jobs, if there were high road trucking jobs with the ports, you know, there would be more interest in being a driver. And we wouldn't be in the situation that we're in now,
Tracy:
Who are the types of people who are becoming drivers now, because, you know, again, presumably with all this cargo going through the ports, all this demand for truckers, uh, presumably the companies have been trying to find new ones. So who is actually coming into the industry at the moment.
Ron:
That's a good question. Currently, the dominant worker there is basically all immigrant. So you have that factor involved as well. I wouldn't think that there's a rush right of incoming prospects that come into an industry that needs a lot of work right.
Joe:
The way you framed the question is like, is there a truck driver shortage or is there a shortage of good paying jobs that have that attract, would attract workers I think was a good reframing, but have we seen specific examples of companies either with our staff or trying to, uh, attract contract workers, essentially meaningfully change how the job is, is compensated or done such that it does become more appealing? Like what have we seen, have we seen shifts on the employer side to sort of address the, the shortage as you see it?
Ron:
I think companies have raised wages to try to accommodate it, but you know, when a driver's paid by the load, the revenue that, that he receives from that load by her having heard, you know, uh, that side of it, uh, on the employee side, definitely have, I've heard companies that have have risen wages.
Tracy:
So here's a very dumb question, but why don't they just start paying people who are waiting to take on loads? And I mean the reason I ask it is we know this is an issue. We know that people are waiting for far longer than they used to have to. We know that the Biden administration has made noises about increasing pay and benefits for this particular area of the workforce. Um, and we've heard from the companies that they want to try to fix things, and it seems like incentivizing more drivers into this market by actually paying them for, you know, all the hours that they are devoting to up and loading and unloading a container. It seems like that would be an obvious thing to do to help.
Ron:
I couldn't agree with you more. I mean we hear stories of drivers waiting 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 hours for a load sometimes even more. So that's definitely something that has to be looked at. And it's not every load, both our port directors are under tough conditions, right. They do a great job, but I have to, you know, applaud the Biden administration for attempting to make things better. I know that he's gotten the stakeholders together. Um, we've had numerous meetings with both port directors here in Long Beach and Los Angeles. We formed a collaborative, we, um, meet, um, regularly. Uh, I meet with, you know, the different unions that have a stake here in the port. So we're moving in the right direction. But the fact that companies are still being sued by workers for wage, that, you know, companies are still taking advantage of an industry because you can't have it both wages, right?
You can't pay low wages and then expect of workers to be at your door, trying to become a truck driver. It just doesn't work that way. There has to be incentives for people to choose a career in driving a truck. I was a truck driver. I'm one of 'em, right. Uh, I raised a family on the wages benefits of the unionized trucking company delivery company. I did, you know, very well for myself because of collective bargaining and the union that I belonged to. So I'm trying to take what was benefited by myself and my family and expose that to these drivers, uh, to give them a chance to give working families a chance to, you know, create, you know a work environment form that definitely has, you know, safety requirements and, and, um, folks can work without the fear of, of exposing themselves to a virus that could literally kill you.
Joe:
There's a lot of churn. People are quitting their jobs at high levels. Do you think any companies are, or will, or around to see essentially having a unionized workforce as essentially a benefit that it's like, if you come here, you are part of a union. And that, that is a certain, like, so, you know, much like say 401ks or healthcare is that, that is a, an attractive thing about working for a company that would make, uh, a worker less likely to quit and created just sort of more stable, less churned workforce without as much, you know, efforts at constantly recruiting and training people.
Ron:
I don't wanna be, you know, an idealist, but I sure hope so. I think that there's, um, uh, having a, a unionized force creates a stable workforce for a company. Um, look at some of the, the big companies like ups, their brand is efficiency and production yet. They're very productive when it comes to their business model and their profits compare that to Amazon, to, to FedEx, uh, where part-time drivers are prominent. I raised, as I said earlier, I raised the family on the benefits of ups and the partnership with the Teamsters. So, um, I look at that is the model. And I hope that, you know, owners of, of these trucking companies and these employers know, uh, that their workers actually mean something. I mean, the word, uh, essential was coined over the past two years. And I think that economic, that word needs to be utilized as far as finances of, of a worker is dependent on. So what I'm saying is, if workers are essential, then they have to be compensated as such.
Tracy:
So why don't you walk us through what it is that you are trying to do right now for the drivers and why now feels like, I mean, presumably it feels like an urgent issue we've sort of discussed why, but why is it a good time to try to push through these changes?
Ron:
I think, you know, uh, the pandemic has, has also, uh, given workers a whole, a different attitude, right? They were these workers, right. Had, like I said earlier, you know, they had to kinda work. There was no remote working and they put a value on themselves and they know that their value was being taken advantage of. So what would I like to see in the future unionization? I believe in collective bargaining because, uh, with a union contract benefits are, are raised automatically through, through the contract bargaining and representation by a union is essential to, you know, help create a middle class that is rotten is deteriorated. We all know that we are trying to definitely attack misclassification. Uh, I think it's a system that was taken advantage of by companies to the unfortunate exploitation of workers. So, um, we're currently organizing a company in Southern California, both in Los Angeles and San Diego.
And it's gonna be a real challenge, 250 drivers in combined and they're allegedly misclassified drivers, but yet they signed petitioning cards to join the Teamsters, the board and the courts are, um, sure. Gonna be busy on determining whether these workers gonna actually join the, the Teamsters are not first. They have to determine whether these independent contractor actually employees, but recently the Teamsters, these workers and the Teamsters wanna not the Teamsters, but these workers, uh, won a, uh, 30 million settlement were the courts ruled that they were employees. So we are in the cup right now of creating a president that workers, in this case work truck drivers will definitely benefit and they'll be able to join their union and enjoy benefits that they wouldn't normally enjoy as an independent contractor.
Joe:
Could you explain that a little bit, um, further what will happen? So who are the 250 drivers who have signed, uh, this intent and what will happen if they are recognized as being, uh, properly characterized as a employee, just like walk through the sort of like specifics of where we're talking about and what the ramifications of it would be.
Ron:
Yeah, they are XPO drivers in the city oof Commerce and in San Diego. And they've joined together in, in a petition to, um, you know, be represented by the Teamsters. Uh, we are currently in, in litigation and, and through a board filing to determine that, uh, we, uh, hopefully will get a ruling, you know, obviously in, in favor of the workers, but you know, right now it it's just a wait and see we're in a wait and see position right now, but it's gonna create precedence. And, and we're very excited about the possibility that this be ruled and the workers' favor. Thus, you know, these drivers will be a part of our, our union.
Tracy:
I realize there's one thing about the current working condition that I wanted to ask you. And, and we didn't touch on it yet, but the move to 24 7 at the port of Los Angeles, how is that actually going from the driver perspective and what are the challenges in, in shifting to that model
Ron:
Efficiency wise, right. Unloading and loading the cargo, obviously the, it benefited from it, but when you have a certain amount of drivers and those drivers have restricted hours per the department of transportation and know new drivers are coming in, I don't think that mathematically, you know, that was, uh, something that, that actually benefited it from it, you know, the 24 7 project, definitely something that was a good thing. Driver wise possibly didn't work out mathematically.
Joe:
Yeah. I guess that's kind of tough if you're already facing a challenge of getting enough labor, how do you expand it to 24 7? You know, one way of thinking about the last two years obviously is you put forward is these jobs need to be better and they need to pay more and they need to have more benefits. They need to have more health benefits so that they can attract a more stable and a larger workforce. And then there are other people, of course, who, who look at this and say, oh, well we should just automate everything and we need more robots. And the reason why we have this bottleneck at the ports is because it's not sufficiently high tech. What do you say? I mean, there, you must encounter this a lot. This argument that, uh, human workers at the ports are part of the problem and that we need more automat, what's your view on that? And I assume I'm guessing you disagree, but I'm not sure what's your perspective on what it would take to make the ports run better.
Ron:
Obviously it's a complicated issue and, and you know, other unions that operate down there, the principal unions are definitely, uh, they understand automation, but they also don't understand the loss of jobs. I can only speak on, you know, how that affects truck driving and logistics. Sure. I don't know if you wanna be with your family next to automated vehicle, traveling down the highway. I certainly wouldn't in the truck driving, uh, aspect of it. You have to have a physical being inside that truck, making determinations of safety, you don't on a computer doing it. What if there's something that, that, uh, uh, the technology, um, there's a lot of talk right now about automated trucks, right? Driverless trucks, platooning where trucks follow in, in tandem, uh, one another, you know, through a Bluetooth type technology, right? Uh, I think that's pretty space age, right? The, for our highways. And I'd hate to see that, you know, ever come to something that's that's, uh, reality. But, um, obviously the automation piece of it is, is a big concern down at the ports, but you know, I'm not the person that could speak on the, the loading and unload. Got it.
Tracy:
Um, I know we've been focused on, on labor issues, but again, from your perspective of talking to people day in day out about the challenges that they face as port drivers at the moment, is there anything else that could be done to make their lives easier or to make the ports more efficient overall?
Ron:
I think, um, one of the things that we agree on with the port directors is technology companies like ups have electronic dispatching with loads and enter into their facilities. And I think it's something in that that can be utilized at the, at the ports, but I mean, consider this right. So all three of us own our own trucks. Does that mean that we have to invest in technology within that truck to, you know, network a, a server that, you know, allows us to be dispatched electronically? Or is that something that the porch is gonna pay for? Is that your trucking company gonna pay for, but that's your truck. So right now you pay for tires right now, you pay for oil changes right now, you pay for fuel. So this is, this is one of the things that we've been bringing to light that, you know, in order to have a more efficient ports, you have to utilize, uh, technology to, you know, track loads coming in and out more efficiently. And it definitely has to be monitored within that, you know, the individual trucks and if not, you're gonna continue, you know, with the current system. Uh, but then again, let me bring back the fact that you're, you're an independent contractor. Is that another expense for you?
Joe:
So the idea is there is potential for technology to greatly improve the operation of the ports, but that it's sort of an impediment. If you have a fragmented truck driver model, independent truckers, who would theoretically have to make the investment on their own, as opposed to something more centralized and broad based,
Ron:
Take the question mark off. And that's a statement.
Joe:
Got it.
Ron:
That is perfectly said.
Joe:
You can use that one for free.
Ron:
Thank you
Joe:
Actually, I guess I have one last question and it's, it's just a little bit more short term. So obviously like technology, and as you describe, it has the potential to presumably make the ports more efficient. Is there anything like acute into short term? Like that's not, you know, a big investment of technology probably gonna take a while to have an effect, but right now, you know, the us, we're still talking about slowness at the ports and a long wait time. Cetera, is there anything like the short term from your per that could make, uh, things move faster?
Ron:
I think the collaboratives that have been formed as a result of, um, the Biden administration, you know, exposing this and, and asking stakeholders to get involved, get involved. And, you know, the fact that government has taken a, a, uh, interest in this, but, but the collaboratives or the local collaboratives it's working. Hmm. Um, stakeholders are actually talking. Stakeholders are at the table. Different unions are at the table. Companies are at the table. Uh, we just got visited here in Los Angeles by the, um, secretary of transportation. We were visited by the secretary labor and the deputy, um, uh, secretary of labor. We were visited by the secretary labor of California. So we have to continue to do that. I meet constantly with, uh, the port directors with longshore it's pain dividends, without a doubt. We know that we're in a tough time. The product is because of the pandemic, right. Online shopping and, and, uh, internet shopping is just exploded. Right? Delivery is, is just off the chart volume of, of, uh, merchandise is, has risen to where we don't have capacity. But I think that we keep doing that. That's a definite a vehicle to better the situation at the ports, because we all have, when we sit down, we all have, we have different ideas, but you know, they're good ideas.
Joe:
Well Ron Herrera, thank you so much for coming on. This is a, a sorely needed perspective on the show. So thank you for coming on. Knd lots.
Ron:
I believe that thank yous, go to you, Joe and Tracy, because I think it's very important that our, um, O P right, uh, what we think, you know, as far as organized labor goes, it's very important. And thank you for allowing me to come on and, and sharing my views.
Joe:
It was our pleasure. Thank you so much.
Tracy:
Thanks so much, Ron.
Joe:
Tracy, I thought that was a really helpful episode. I mean, it's interesting. There are a few themes that I like. One is his point about ups multiple times, like this idea that maybe unions could be considered to be a benefit where a company actually sees it as strategic asset. And it really feels like if, if churn remains high and if the quit rate remains high for a lot of industries, you could see companies essentially thinking, uh, or more companies essentially thinking of like unionization as like, Hey, if you wanna, you know, if you work here, this is something that you could be part of as a, uh, a strategic selling point.
Tracy:
Yeah. I mean, I could see that also just broadly more pay and benefits, and maybe not being super stressed out, which is something that we spoke about with, uh, with Stinson Dean, this idea that employers could start over hiring and providing more pay and benefits for their workers, if, if they're really struggling to, to find people, I, that seems fairly obvious. But the other thing, the other thing that struck me was just how we got into a place where big logistics companies have this mix of full time and contractors, but beyond the, they also have this weird mix of private versus outsourced capital because the drivers, as Ron was mentioning, do have to own their own trucks. They often borrow money, um, at onerous terms in order to actually do that. And then it kind of begs the question of if there are any efficiency or tech improvements that you actually want to start implementing, who pays for that. And if the onus is gonna be entirely on the workforce to upgrade its technology, it, it does feel like it's just gonna take years and years to do if it's possible at all.
Joe:
Yeah. I thought that was incredibly interesting and it dynamic that I hadn't really thought of before. I mean, like, if you think of, you know, people think of gig workers, obviously these days, like say a company like Uber comes to mind, but that is essentially like, it's a centralized, it's one company and all of their employees use the Uber technology stack of dispatch, et cetera. But it's obviously a lot more complicated when there's multiple companies and there's sort of true gig workers and they really, there is not one company at the heart of it. And then it's like, yeah. Okay, great. So we're going to have like new technology dispatch thing and reduce the weight ties, but yeah, to, uh, as you said, as Ron said, like, that's great, but are the, are the drivers gonna have to pay for it? Are they all gonna go to the same system? It seems, uh, ex in a sort of like true gig working environment. That seems a lot more difficult.
Tracy:
Yeah. And it's something I hadn't considered before. I mean, I guess it gets back to the question of who exactly is gonna pay for it and whether it's easier to roll these things out on a centralized or a decentralized basis, but yeah, it's an interesting thought.
Joe:
And I guess the one other thing, and this is a very broad theme of a lot of things, is this idea, you know, is Ron put it in the beginning, peeling back the onion, the pandemic, exposing a lot of what was already there, just a really important point. And we see that with truck drivers. And we see that with people who work in meat, plants, packing plants, and other things like that. It's like there has been like, sort of like deeply problematic aspects of the labor force and wage theft for port drivers is one of them. And it's the sort of stress by the last two years that have really brought, brought them to light. And perhaps showing that it's like, this actually can't go back. Like, this is like, sort of deeply inequitable prior to the pandemic. And now everyone sees plane this day.
Tracy:
Yeah. That seems to be the big theme. And even just thinking about health insurance, I mean, how long have people pointed to health insurance in the us as a big problem, but there's nothing like a, a pandemic to really crystallize how much of a problem it is, especially for gig workers who don't have it at all.
Joe:
And, you know, going back to the outsourcing of capital, if you have to, if you borrowed money to acquire your truck and maintain it and so forth, like you really can't miss time and you really do not have much leverage and sure. Maybe you want higher wages, but if you have to like make these like back pay, cuz you're paying off your truck, can you just go to another industry? Like that's maybe not like this is a big cost burden. And so it really does like, uh, potentially, uh, worsen worker leverage.
Tracy:
Yeah. All right. Well on that happy note, shall we leave it there?
Joe:
Let's leave it there.
You can follow Ron Herrera on Twitter at @RonHerrera_396.